Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Meeting date: Thursday, May 16, 2024

Official Report 1091KB pdf

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Portfolio Question Time

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Education and Skills

The next item of business is portfolio questions on education and skills. As always, I make a plea for succinct questions and answers, in order to allow as many members as possible to participate.

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Scottish Funding Council (Subject Price Groups)

To ask the Scottish Government when the Scottish Funding Council’s subject price groups for higher education were last reviewed. (S6O-03436)

The subject groupings within the price groups were last formally reviewed in academic year 2017-18 with a group of sector representatives. The recommendation from that group to the Scottish Funding Council was that no changes should be made at that time. The SFC is planning to commence a further review of the subject groupings within its price groups during academic year 2024-25, as part of a wider review of its approach to teaching funding.

I recently met the principals of the University of Aberdeen and Robert Gordon University and heard about the widening gap between the Scottish Funding Council price allocation and the actual cost or resource that is required to deliver courses and other activities. I am aware that the transparent approach to costing methodology is an attempt to measure that across the United Kingdom, and confirms a gap at aggregate level. I was not aware of any recent analysis in Scotland, but the minister has just clarified when that last happened. Could consideration be given to a fresh analysis of the cost relative to price, on a subject price group basis, for universities, as he set out, to determine whether the funding gap has become more concentrated in specific subject areas?

As I noted earlier, the Scottish Funding Council is planning to start its review of price groups during the next academic year. That will be part of a wider review of its approach to teaching funding, which will involve engaging across the sector and will cover the point that Audrey Nicoll has raised.

We have a number of supplementary questions, and the first is from Liam Kerr, who joins us remotely.

It is good to hear about the review that will take place. Will the number of subject groups form part of that review? If so, how will the minister avoid adding complexity to an already challenging situation?

As a point of principle, I agree with Liam Kerr that any changes that we make should, wherever possible, declutter the landscape, rather than complicate it further. I accept that the teaching price group model is rather complicated, so I hope that the SFC will actively look at that, as part of the review. However, Mr Kerr will understand that he and I are not experts in that field, and that there might be a sound reason for the approach that has been taken.

On the allocations this year, the minister will be aware that Scotland’s post-1992 universities, which are key to widening access and training for health and social care staff, feel that they have had a disproportionate cut. What discussion has the minister had with the SFC on that? What is his understanding of why that has happened?

I have had a discussion with the SFC and I have been in contact with the post-1992 universities. Part of the issue in the allocations process is that there are winners and losers. I am keen to explore how we—the Government, the universities and the SFC—will arrive at final allocations in the future, because I want to ensure that, if the sector can produce a coherent ask or a set of deliverable preferences, it is fully considered as part of the process.

When looking at pricing for higher education, what measures, in addition to the Scottish Funding Council’s rural and remoteness funding premium, can be taken to ensure that courses are appropriately funded and that availability of courses does not come down to what is cheapest to deliver? That is a concern in my constituency, given the restructuring at UHI Shetland.

Beatrice Wishart has raised quite a complex issue, so rather than give her a quick-fire answer, I commit either to writing to her or to engaging with her directly on that subject.

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College Regions (Glasgow and Lanarkshire)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on when a decision will be made regarding the Scottish Funding Council’s recommendation to end the regional colleges arrangement in Lanarkshire and Glasgow. (S6O-03437)

I have taken time to consider the Scottish Funding Council’s advice and the practicalities and implications of implementing any changes within the Glasgow and Lanarkshire college regions, in the context of wider reform. It was right to listen to different perspectives and concerns.

That process is now complete, and I can confirm to Parliament today that I intend to undertake a formal consultation on the future of the Glasgow Colleges Regional Board and the Lanarkshire Board, as I am required to do, with my preferred option being to dissolve both boards.

I thank the minister for that very helpful answer. I wonder if, as a follow-up, he can give us some idea of the timescale for that consultation. Should the consultation agree with the minister, when would we expect to see the change in the current arrangements?

We will seek to launch the consultation in the coming weeks. I am looking across the chamber at the convener of the Education, Children and Young People Committee, the busy schedule of which will, no doubt, have an impact on the process. My aim is to have it completed in time for the next academic year; I hope that the process will be completed within six to nine months maximum.

As the constituency MSP for East Kilbride, I very much welcome the news. Can the minister outline the benefits that the new funding arrangements will bring to students, staff and South Lanarkshire College as a whole?

I hope and expect that the abolition of the regional boards will act as a spur to individual colleges. The action is certainly one that the overwhelming majority of colleges have been pressing for. I know, from visiting South Lanarkshire College, of the ambitious plans that its principal has and would pursue, were she to find herself freed from the existing governance model. I have every confidence that that particular institution will thrive under the changes that we are proposing.

Does the minister agree that there is a need for a co-ordinating mechanism on skills across the Glasgow region? Will he meet me to discuss what we could do to put something like that in place, if the Glasgow Colleges Regional Board were to be dissolved?

I am, of course, happy to meet Pam Duncan-Glancy, but I point out that there is a co-ordinating regional model in place for skills co-ordination, which we are working with, and which colleges in Glasgow and the greater Glasgow area feed into. I am happy to discuss the matter further with Ms Duncan-Glancy.

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School Starting Age

To ask the Scottish Government what consideration it has given to raising the school starting age and implementing a universal kindergarten stage. (S6O-03438)

Mr MacGregor will be aware that I have met representatives of Upstart Scotland. I was impressed by their level of knowledge and enthusiasm in relation to this policy area.

As for what we are currently doing, since 2014 the Scottish Government has almost doubled the entitlement to high-quality funded early learning and childcare to 1,140 hours per year for eligible children, including all children who defer their school entry. The curriculum for excellence spans ELC and primary school, and it supports the implementation of a play-based curriculum until the end of primary 1. I have seen that in action during some of the visits that I have had the pleasure of making.

Although I am interested in further exploration of a kindergarten stage, that would be a fundamental change in our education system and it would require further work to understand the cost and how such a proposal could be implemented in Scotland in the future.

I thank the minister for that response. Because of a decision that was taken in 1800s Victorian Britain to start children at school at five years of age, Scotland and, indeed, the United Kingdom lag behind our European neighbours. In many other countries, children start school at six or seven years old.

What assessment has the minister made of Upstart Scotland’s research, which indicates that the nations that have already implemented a kindergarten stage have been rewarded by the greatest success in international comparisons for education and child development, and that later school entry would help to close the attainment gap and address mental and emotional health issues and behavioural issues for Scotland’s children? Will she join me in calling for a national discussion on the issue to foster debate within Scottish society?

I thank Upstart for its research and continued work in the area. We know that high-quality ELC makes an important contribution to children’s outcomes, particularly for those who grow up in disadvantaged circumstances. It is critical that parents can make the right choice for their child, which is why we legislated to allow access to an additional year of funded ELC to all children who defer starting primary school. In my view, it is important that we fully understand the impact of the guidance and of our transformational investment in ELC before we consider any further major reforms.

The final evaluation report on the expansion of funded ELC to 1,140 hours is due to be published by the end of 2025. In the meantime, as I have said, I am interested in the subject and would be happy to meet Fulton MacGregor and Upstart Scotland to hear more about the research into other nations and to discuss what a national conversation might entail.

The benefits of good early years education cannot be overstated. It promotes nurture, socialisation and the development of meaningful relationships. It helps to develop a child’s interests through investigation and discovery, promotes physical development and develops problem solving, risk assessment and resilience. In the light of those benefits, will the minister advise us what other international examples have been researched, what models are currently suitable to Scottish anthropology and how that will inform the Scottish Government’s approach in the future?

Our internationally respected early years practice guidance, “Realising the Ambition: Being Me”, promotes play-based and outdoor learning and spans ELC and primary school. I understand that Upstart Scotland has said that if that document could be translated into practice in all Scottish early years settings, including in primary 1, Scotland’s ELC provision would be up there with that of the Nordic countries.

As I said, I am happy to explore that further, which will include looking at international examples. I would be happy to discuss that with the member.

We know that children are ready for formal learning and for changes in stages at different times. That is the defining reason for their being able to defer the start of schooling. What thought has the Scottish Government given to how we can support children who are not ready to move on to the next school year as they move further through their education journey?

Mr Whitfield has raised a really important point. We know that some children are not ready to start school at five, which is why we legislated to ensure that all children who defer starting school are automatically entitled to ELC.

I recognise that the question goes further and applies to pupils who are in school and moving between years. I emphasise that we are currently undertaking an ambitious programme of education reform and that we might need to have that kind of conversation. In the interim, I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills to write to Mr Whitfield regarding the current support measures that are on offer.

Fulton MacGregor asked an excellent question and I am fully behind that suggested change. It is important that we support Upstart’s campaign for a delay to the start of formal education and the introduction of a kindergarten stage.

Kaukab Stewart has done a lot of work on the matter. I hope that, in the spirit of our new Government, the minister will be open to cross-party work to take that forward and to gather the evidence that she is looking for. Will the minister consider that?

I know that the policy has support from members across the chamber and I hope I have been clear that I am certainly open to conversations about that, which absolutely would include cross-party work.

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Music Teachers (Primary School)

To ask the Scottish Government what it anticipates the impact of the reported reduction in primary school music teacher numbers will be on children and young people. (S6O-03439)

Primary school teachers are generalists who are trained to teach the whole curriculum. Although it is for local authorities to ensure adequate provision of education staff, this Government remains committed to protecting teacher numbers and we are offering local authorities an additional £145.5 million in this year’s budget for that purpose.

The Government has supported a transformation in access to music tuition across Scotland by supporting councils to eradicate unfair charges for instrumental music tuition in schools. The most recent instrumental music survey, which was published in December last year, showed that the number of pupils participating in instrumental music tuition is at a record high.

The cabinet secretary mentioned protecting teacher numbers, but there are now only 37 specialist music teachers in primary schools across Scotland. That number is down from 98 in 2008, the first year of the Scottish National Party being in power, and down from 108 in 2011.

Does the cabinet secretary share my concern that, in a country with such rich musical traditions as Scotland, young people are not getting the access to specialist music tuition that we had when we were at primary school? What is she doing about that?

As I said in my original response, primary school teachers are generalists. When Mr Briggs and I were at primary school, we had a system whereby peripatetic teachers might come in to deliver music education or drama, for example. That system is not necessarily replicated across the country now. However, the Government is investing in employing record numbers of teachers in our schools and, since the pandemic, we have made significant additional investment to support a policy of maintaining teacher numbers, which I, as a former teacher, think is hugely important.

Yesterday, I was at the conference for religious education teachers at Queen Margaret University, and they asked me exactly the same question in relation to religious education. I think that there is an opportunity through education reform for us to better support specialisms in schools, particularly primary schools. I see Liz Smith nodding—we discussed this topic when we served on the Education and Skills Committee in the previous parliamentary session.

I am more than happy to have that conversation with Miles Briggs, but the question for the Opposition is how we fund that, given the additionality that Government is already putting in to fund the protection of teacher numbers, which is a policy that I support.

A 2022 national partnership for culture report found that 73 per cent of primary school teachers feel unprepared by their initial teacher education to teach music. The same percentage of primary teachers also reported feeling underresourced to deliver culture as part of the curriculum. In the light of the reduction in the number of music specialists, as highlighted by Miles Briggs, what action is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that primary school teachers have the skills and resources to support culture?

Back in, I think, 2012, Education Scotland published a report in relation to social studies, which specifically looked at primary school teachers’ confidence in delivering modern studies and at issues about political literacy. Similar challenges were expressed in regard to that specialism, so this is not only about music education, although I accept that that is the premise of the original question. It is about how we can better support specialisms in our primary sector, recognising that those teachers are generalists and they are expected to deliver the totality of Scotland’s curriculum.

The major way in which we will improve support of primary teachers is through improving Scotland’s curriculum. We have already started some of that work in relation to maths education through the curriculum improvement cycle. Culture, and the role that it represents in the current curricular areas, will be part of that curriculum update, and ensuring that we can better equip Scotland’s teachers will be part of the process.

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School Buildings (Asbestos)

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities regarding the management of asbestos within school buildings. (S6O-03440)

Local authorities have statutory responsibility for the control and management of asbestos in their schools. However, the Scottish Government has recently engaged with COSLA and local authorities on this matter. For example, through our recent engagement about the Health and Safety Executive’s “Asbestos—Your Duty” campaign, we flagged the risk of asbestos and raised awareness of the legal duty to manage those risks.

I should also highlight that health and safety is not devolved to the Scottish Government, and the Health and Safety Executive has United Kingdom-wide responsibility for enforcement of the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012.

One of my constituents, who is 32, was diagnosed with mesothelioma at 30 years of age. She believes that that is because she was exposed to asbestos in the built environment and she strongly suspects that it was from the school that she attended in Clydebank. My constituent is a member of the Clydebank Asbestos Group, which supports the phased removal of asbestos from the school estate.

Will the cabinet secretary agree to meet me and campaigners, including the Clydebank Asbestos Group? The meeting will be an opportunity to hear the concerns about the presence of asbestos in schools, and representatives of COSLA should also be invited to attend.

I thank Marie McNair for raising a hugely important point. Thanks to investment from this Government, the school estate in Scotland has improved, from around 60 per cent of schools being in good or satisfactory condition to, today, more than 90 per cent of schools being in good or satisfactory condition.

However, I very much recognise the challenge that the member has presented. I know that the Clydebank Asbestos Group helped to provide support, advice and information to victims of asbestos, such as the member’s constituent, and to their families. I would be more than happy to meet the member and her constituent to discuss the matter in more detail.

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Digital Strategy for Education

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the development of a digital strategy to help ensure that digital provision supports the wider aims of the education system. (S6O-03441)

As set out in the 2023 programme for government, work has commenced on development of a new digital strategy for education. Working in partnership with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, we will establish an advisory group to support both the development work and wider engagement across the system. We expect to publish that in autumn 2024.

With rapid developments in digital technology, the new cross-party group on the Scottish games ecosystem has exposed an issue around Scottish Qualifications Authority college qualifications. The college qualifications have not been updated in 13 years. A college lecturer spoke at the CPG about a course that still talks about Flash Player, which I used as an information technology professional more than 24 years ago.

Will the new digital strategy work to update educational qualifications in the games and artificial intelligence-adjacent courses, so that skills and education keep pace?

I thank the member for her question, in particular as it relates to colleges. She will know that Professor Louise Hayward’s review, which was published last year, looked specifically at the opportunities that AI presents and at supporting the development of new qualifications as part of our programme of education reform.

I would be more than happy to ask the Minister for Higher and Further Education to engage with the member on the specific issue in relation to colleges. More generally, it is important that our new digital strategy for education outlines the role that we believe digital tools and services will play in the future of Scottish education.

As we all know, the pace of development in digital is quite breathtaking. Can the cabinet secretary provide clarity on delivery on the ground in classrooms and, importantly, when teachers and learners will start to benefit from the digital strategy before, quite frankly, it is obsolete?

As Ms Webber will recognise, part of the budgetary process that I now oversee will invest £10 million to support digital inclusion for hard-pressed families who are struggling with the cost of living. I understand that the funding is currently being distributed through COSLA to local authorities that will then have the power to make a difference in their communities by enacting the types of changes that we will need to support the new digital strategy.

As well as providing that additionality, it will be incumbent on the Government to progress the strategy that will sit alongside it and the actions that will help to support the development of the new qualifications. To that end, I look forward to coming back to Parliament in the coming week to give a further update.

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Free School Meals (Income Threshold)

To ask the Scottish Government when it will next review the income threshold for free school meals for those pupils not in a year where provision is currently free. (S6O-03442)

Universal free school meals are available to all pupils in primaries 1 to 5 and in special schools. We remain committed to further expanding universal free school meals to all pupils in primaries 6 and 7.

For year groups outwith the current universal offer, we last amended the eligibility criteria on 1 April 2024, following the latest increases to the national living wage. The eligibility criteria were amended for families in receipt of either tax credits or universal credit.

The Scottish Government continues to regularly monitor the eligibility criteria for free school meals to take account of changes in circumstances, such as further increases in the level of the national living wage.

There is not one Labour member who does not share the First Minister’s priority of ending child poverty. However, the reality is that, even allowing for what the cabinet secretary has said, in Scotland some children are still going hungry. Key stakeholders, including Aberlour, have argued that we could make further changes to the income threshold per pupil in years where the provision is not free, which would improve even further families’ access to free school meals. Will the Government commit to looking at how much further it could increase the threshold so that more families would be able to access that provision?

Ms Mochan might know that, yesterday, along with her colleague Monica Lennon, I attended a round-table meeting on free school meals provision. It is worth while reminding the chamber that Scotland has the most generous offer of free school meal provision across these islands. However, Ms Mochan raises a hugely important point. The Government regularly updates the eligibility criteria that we set for free school meals, and we last did so in April. I would be more than happy to discuss the matter with officials, in recognition of the pivotal role that free school meal provision plays in helping to tackle child poverty.

While we are discussing free school meals, will the cabinet secretary consider providing morning activities with breakfast as a worthwhile investment against the costs of issues such as poor physical and mental health, attainment and behaviour, and hunger? Might she even consider a pilot scheme on that subject?

I recognise Brian Whittle’s clear interest in the area, and we have discussed it at length in the chamber on a number of occasions. The connection between nutrition and physical activity is hugely important. Only today, we heard the First Minister talk about his own commitment to running and the impact that it has on his wellbeing. I would be more than happy to discuss the issue with Mr Whittle. I would have to look at my budget in relation to the opportunities that such a pilot might present. It is also worth while saying that the Government has a commitment to run a pilot in our secondary schools in relation to free school meals. We might be able to consider the member’s suggestion as part of that work.

It is very welcome that the Scottish Government remains committed to expanding free school meal availability. Can the cabinet secretary provide an update on what assessment the Scottish Government has made of the rate of uptake of free school meals? Can she say any more about what steps can be taken to maximise uptake?

Last year, our healthy living survey found that the percentage of eligible pupils who were taking a free school meal was 70.4 per cent, which represented an increase on the previous year. In addition, our pupil census data shows that more than half of all pupils are now registered for free school meals. However, we recognise that the percentage of pupils who are taking a meal is still lower than it was prior to the pandemic, when around 76 per cent of eligible pupils were recorded as taking free school meals.

The fall in uptake partly reflects some changes in eating habits that occurred during the pandemic, which resulted in more pupils taking packed lunches to school than was the case prior to lockdown. However, as I stated in my original answer to Carol Mochan, we remain absolutely committed to further expanding the provision of universal free school meals to all pupils in primaries 6 and 7.

Question 8 has been withdrawn, so that concludes portfolio question time. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business to allow front-bench teams to change position, should they so wish.