I thank the Devolution and Further Powers Committee for the presentation of the committee’s report this afternoon.
Mr Crawford served, as he said in his speech, as a cabinet secretary with responsibility for IGR. He brings a valuable insight to the debate through the combination of that experience and the role of convening the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, which has given such detailed scrutiny to the next stage in the devolution journey through its scrutiny of the Scotland Bill and the associated proceedings that have taken place in the course of the past year or so.
I thank the committee for bringing the issue to Parliament today. I have read the committee’s report with interest and have already provided an initial response that welcomes the recommendations, which I hope the committee found helpful.
My perspective on the discussion is largely formed by my experience over the past eight and a half years of being involved in many discussions between ministers in the Scottish and United Kingdom Governments on bilateral and multilateral issues.
Certainly in relation to my specific responsibilities as the cabinet secretary for finance, I have valued the opportunity in intergovernmental discussions to make representations to the UK Government, in partnership with my colleagues from Wales and Northern Ireland. On certain occasions, we have been successful in advancing the perspectives that are largely shared by the devolved Administrations, and in changing the perspective of the UK Government.
My perspective has also been informed by my participation in the Smith commission, which spent a great deal of time discussing IGR. The nature of those discussions had such an effect on the proceedings that it led Lord Smith to remark in his commentary on the need to improve those relationships and how they operate.
I agree very much with Mr Crawford that IGR is an area that is constantly evolving. The devolution settlement has changed significantly from what was originally legislated for in the contents of the Scotland Act 1998. We must acknowledge the importance of changing the nature of the relationships between the Administrations of the UK to reflect that changing settlement over the course of, now, 16 years and four Parliamentary sessions.
Mr Crawford said that we are now in a space in which we are more habitually sharing powers with the UK Government. That brings a challenging set of issues around IGR because that also requires changing mindsets and ways of undertaking intergovernmental business that may be different to how the Administrations have been accustomed to exercising those responsibilities. I confirm on behalf of the Scottish Government our willingness to be part of addressing how that change in culture and mood may be taken forward.
The Scottish Government is committed to openness and transparency in our joint working both bilaterally with the UK Government and, on a wider basis, with the UK Government and the other devolved Administrations. We are committed to working with other parties across the chamber to ensure that Parliament has strong working relationships with our sister institutions across the UK. The Government is committed to ensuring that this Parliament plays a proper part in shaping the formal agreements that we enter into, and in holding us to account for our conduct of business with the other Administrations. In that respect, as I highlighted in my response to the committee’s report, it is not the proper role of Government to specify how Parliament should exercise those responsibilities, other than to signal the willingness of the Government to respond to the demands of Parliament for effective and transparent scrutiny of this area of activity.
Against that backdrop, I assure Parliament that the committee’s recommendations and the points that will be made in the debate today will be fully taken into account in our discussions about development of intergovernmental working, as we seek to continue to improve those arrangements.
I would like to acknowledge the need for change in those relationships. I am sure that all members will agree with the conclusions in the Smith agreement that the additional powers that we hope will come to this Parliament as a result of its successful implementation will require change in our intergovernmental machinery. The Scottish Government will play its part in making that happen. We recognise our duty to the people of Scotland to do so and we hope and expect to see that same approach on the part of the UK Government. Although we are keen to strengthen our working arrangements with the UK Government, we should acknowledge that the formal liaison machinery is based on agreements across all devolved Administrations and the UK Government.
We are not alone in gearing up for significant change. Similarly to Smith, the Silk commission called for
“enhancement of existing mechanisms for improving relations”
between the Welsh and UK Governments. The draft Wales bill promises significant changes in the Welsh devolution settlement. Our friends in the Northern Ireland Executive face a distinct set of circumstances, which inevitably shape how they approach the agenda.
Our current intergovernmental processes need to be understood against that backdrop. This Parliament, quite rightly, will wish to see the current liaison arrangements strengthened, and to hold the Government to account. We are moving into substantially more complex territory compared to when the machinery for intergovernmental relations was established. Our arrangements must evolve with the times, but they must also be negotiated with our partners and meet our collective interests.
There are clear political differences between the Administrations. However, through the Edinburgh agreement, we have previously demonstrated how we can put those to one side to enable progress when it is right and necessary to do so. Against that backdrop, I remain hopeful that we will be able to secure the changes that this Parliament expects.
I have referred to the growing complexity of the devolution settlement in Scotland. As more powers, especially around tax and welfare, are devolved, so it will be important that there is seamless joint working across the border to ensure that the different policies and priorities that this Government and this Parliament will pursue in relation to those powers, and the different services that are, accordingly, put in place, are implemented and operate effectively alongside continuing services provided by the UK Government.
That will put an onus on the Scottish Government to be willing to discuss our proposals and delivery plans openly. I can assure Parliament that we will do so, through existing liaison machinery and by establishing new arrangements where necessary. We are taking forward some of that work through the joint ministerial committee on welfare, for example.
This is a two-way street, however, and we must see similar willingness on the part of the UK to discuss proposals with and to be prepared to listen to the alternative perspective of the Scottish Government.
There are few, if any, areas of policy in which the Scottish Government does not now have a legitimate interest. Our expectation is that our views will be taken into account in that process. Recent events suggest that there is still some way to go before we can be confident that we genuinely have a partnership-based approach and willingness on the part of the UK Government to respond to distinctive Scottish concerns.
As Parliament is aware, the Scotland Bill completed its House of Commons stages on 9 November and will now be considered by the House of Lords. I acknowledge the work of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee in scrutinising the bill. I agree whole-heartedly with the conclusions in the convener’s recent letter to the Secretary of State for Scotland. Improvements have been made to the bill but there are still significant shortfalls in the drafting, which we will continue to press the UK Government to address.
The substantive changes that we saw at Commons report stage—devolution of the power to create new benefits, an equalities provision that will allow us to set gender quotas for public boards, and some progress in ensuring the permanence of this Parliament—are in no small measure the result of the representations that were made by the Scottish Government and the committee.
This Government will continue to work with the UK Government to secure further improvements to the bill with the aim of being able to recommend it to Parliament. However, as I and the First Minister have made clear, we will support a legislative consent motion only if a satisfactory and fair fiscal framework is agreed between the Scottish and UK Governments. To that end, I will continue to meet the Chief Secretary of the Treasury to discuss the transfer of fiscal levers that will allow this Parliament to use responsibly the new powers that have been promised to us. That will have to be done with consideration of the UK spending review later this month, and the subsequent Scottish budget.
Governments agreed at the commencement of the discussions that the details of the fiscal framework would not be announced until they are finalised. However, with the aim of creating transparency and accountability where reasonable, topics that are discussed are published after each meeting. Once negotiations are complete, the details of that agreement will be laid before Parliament as a legislative consent memorandum. I recognise the point that has been made today and previously by the convener and others about the need for proper parliamentary scrutiny of the fiscal framework. I commit myself once again to ensuring that Parliament is properly convinced that effective parliamentary scrutiny has been exercised in the discussions that are taking place at intergovernmental level.
As I noted in my opening remarks, I have provided an initial written response to the committee expressing my broad support for the recommendations in its report, subject to our being able to make them work effectively. Consideration of those recommendations will form a key element of the review of the formal intergovernmental machinery, which was commissioned by the joint ministerial committee last December in response to the report of the Smith commission.
The Government is determined to work constructively through the joint ministerial committee review, with the objective of ensuring that we have in place arrangements that enhance intergovernmental working and ensure that Parliament can be satisfied that effective parliamentary scrutiny has been applied in this and other cases.
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